Comments on Suburban Saving Mama: Discipline: Spanking

Sherry, continued... The other thing I would like...

2010-02-10T17:04:04.161-06:00

Sherry, continued...

The other thing I would like to address is the comment about the Old Testament versions of justice and discipline being different than the New Testament, and that obscure example that women were isolated during their menstrual cycle. Is this a foundation for rejecting God’s Word to us in the Proverbs? God’s laws given to His people while they were in the wilderness for their own sanitation may seem hard to believe. But we have so many conveniences, including running water whenever we need to be cleaned. I Cor. 10:11 tells us …”that all these things happened to them as examples for our admonition…” We cannot disregard the Old Testament because God dealt more severely with His chosen people than He does with us who live after the cross. Jesus said in Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Just think of losing out on the Psalms and the wonderful comfort and praise of God they bring if we decide the Old Testament is not for today. We do not get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible to obey. It is the inspired word of God from Genesis to Revelation.
The Proverbs have been acknowledged and recognized for their application to daily life. It has also been recommended that you read one Proverb daily for this reason.(Another great parenting book is “Proverbs for Parenting” by Barbara Decker). I do not understand then, rejecting the scriptures Andrea gave because they came from Proverbs. Also the believers living in the New Testament times only had the Old Testament to live by. The New Testament had not been written. They knew that the Old Testament was God’s Word to them and they were obedient to it.
I have given my opinion (in a nutshell) about spanking. But I am more driven to respond because spanking is directed by God. To decide not to spank because our culture says that it is violence, or because of a book that we read, or modern day research, or even our own experiences, is to place all of that above God’s Word. It is to reject His truth. Jesus said in John 14:6 “I am the way, the truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by Me.” His way and His truth do not change because our culture has become politically correct or teaches tolerance of everyone. It is truth. And as I learned in my Bible Study Fellowship class just this week, it is not what I think about truth that matters. It is my response to it.
Moms, if you know the Lord Jesus as your own personal Savior, you cannot throw out spanking. I know spanking is a hot button issue. But if we make this choice in this area, I wonder how many other areas of our lives we disregard God in? It is so easy to do but we really must be diligent if we want to please Him.
Sorry I’m so preachy, first time to blog and probably the last  but it is heavy on my heart. We need moms who will be obedient to all the Word of God because the world needs to see a difference in us and be drawn to Jesus. And because God wants to use those little tykes we are wrestling with today in a wonderful way tomorrow!

Hi. This is Sherry. The other post under my name...

2010-02-10T17:02:48.589-06:00

Hi. This is Sherry. The other post under my name was actually my husband. He is a roofer and was home on a snow day! The blog caught his attention. :) I have not responded because it is so difficult to know who you are talking with, spanking is almost a “taboo” anymore and I do not want to offend anyone. But I did have a few thoughts while reading through the posts. So here goes…
Bethany, yes my children have said they will spank their kids. Two of our three kids are already on their own. We have one grandchild; Mom is definitely on board with this. Our daughter has on several occasions expressed to us how glad she is that we did spank. She was always strong willed and it was not an easy task. Recently our son sent us a thank you note for his Christmas gifts. He expressed in that note that he was grateful that, “We have always been there when he needed something, even in the cases when that was a spanking.” That kind of surprised me as he is not yet married. But then I thought, he is a youth pastor and works several mornings a week at his church’s day care. I know he has “seen” a lot! Number three kiddo I called and asked him what he thought. He is busy working his way through college. “Yes I will spank, doesn’t the Bible tell us that?” No he didn’t think it was bad that he had been spanked. I know I am very blessed to have a great relationship with my kids and have them following the Lord. But that is due to the work of the Lord in each of their hearts. We were not perfect parents even in our disciplining. But God does bless obedience to His Word and that was our guide in raising kids. I did read Shepherding A Childs Heart that has been mentioned. I loved that book. It came about when we already had pre-teen kids. I wish I had read it before we had any kids. It has been many years since I have read it but I do remember that it taught me this: My discipline was not about changing the behavior of my kids. It was to change their hearts. And only God and His word at work in them can change the heart. Jer.17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked… and Prov.22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child…Hard to think that way of that cooing smiling baby, but it is true. They are sinners. Just ignore them when they want to be held and see how they act. All their needs are met and yet they scream bloody murder!
On the bare bottom part, I think my husband was trying to point out that a heavily diapered child is not going to feel a spanking. There does need to be pain. That does not make it violence. I do not remember spanking the kids as they got older, on their bare bottoms and when I asked them they do not remember it either. There is a modesty issue to consider. But we did always use a paddle. And we did always do it in private. It seems to me we had five questions we asked before the spanking, but I can only think of these three now… What was it you did wrong? Why was that wrong? Whom did you offend? Spanking was always followed by holding until tears quit and asking for forgiveness (to the wronged person and to the Lord) and saying I love you. That is not abuse or violent. And it is the way my Heavenly Father still deals with me today. “If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?” Hebrews 12:7. The dictionary defines chastening as: to correct by punishment; to punish; to inflict pain for the purpose of reclaiming an offender. I would like to say that spanking is not the only disciplinary measure we used. But it was also not an isolated event. Time out may have its place as well as taking away a privilege. But so does spanking have a place.

I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and opi...

2010-02-09T15:48:42.079-06:00

I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts and opinions. I'm curious if Sherry's kids plan to spank their children with a paddle on a bare bottom.

I just wanted to clarify a couple of things: 1. ...

2010-02-09T14:26:45.060-06:00

I just wanted to clarify a couple of things:
1. I'm sorry if I offended anyone with the example of dog training. I haven't had a dog for quite a few years, and I guess training techniques have changed. I was never abusive to my pets.
2. I don't believe in spanking in Anger. I didn't make that totally clear in my other comment.
3. I confer that "Sherpherding a Child's Heart" is an excellent book - we studied it in my Early Childhood Education class at college.

I would like to clarify a few things that I have r...

2010-02-09T13:59:09.805-06:00

I would like to clarify a few things that I have read:

1. After reading many comments, I have seen a common theme of equating discipline to spanking and spanking to love. I think that parents love their children regardless of if they choose to spank their children or use another form of discipline. To say that parents need to step up and love their children by spanking them is not accurate to me.

2. I understand that God is the same in the Old Testament and the New Testament but it should be noted that the views of judgment and discipline did change. Yes, the 10 Commandments came from the Old Testament and we all strive to uphold them in our daily lives but some things from the Old Testament are not done in accordance with the law from then. For instance, I do not quarantine myself when I have my period.

3. Children can be easily disciplined without resorting to spanking or another form of physical punishment. Like mentioned before, my profession requires me to work with parents who are struggling with disciplining their children appropriately. I have EFFECTIVELY educated parents on how to discipline their children without spanking. It does exist.

4. Like Lindsey mentioned in her post, some of my most vivid memories of childhood are being spanked. I feared my father for several years in my childhood because of being spanked. Did spanking decrease my behavior...no, I was still spanked quite frequently for misbehaving. I do not want my children to fear my husband and I but to respect our authority and understand consequences aside from physical punishment.

5. Sherry, I agree and disagree with several points that you have made. I do believe that consistency is very important in discipline. My husband and I are on the same page: no spanking and are going to be consistent in that decision which I do believe with make our discipline more effective. I understand that by age you are more experienced as a parent than I am. In conversation with my mother who is a year younger than you, she stated that if she could parent again, she would not spank. She further stated that she found more effective ways to discipline especially with her youngest child which included time-out and withdrawal. Although that type of punishment worked with your family, I could not fathom spanking my child with a paddle nor will I ever resort to that.

In future posts I will go into further detail of other effective ways to discipline. Once again, I do not think that any one of us has the 'correct way' to parent our child. We all want the best for them and do what we think is important.

Reading your posts, I assume that you are all youn...

2010-02-09T12:40:17.862-06:00

Reading your posts, I assume that you are all young mothers. Well I am a 49 year old dad with kids 27,24 and 20, and I would like to give my perspective. I was raised in a loving Christian home and tried to raise my kids in the same way. Frankly, it is due to my wife that our kids have turned out the way they did (she only ever wanted to be a stay at home mom and raise her kids in a godly manor). We used Christian principles to raise our kids, and that included spanking.
The problem with most parents is that the husband and wife do not agree on the punishment for different actions, and they are not consistent with their punishment. You must punish in a loving way, never out of anger (but we all fail at this). Jessica said that she could never spank her 13 month old. Jessica, if you do not start consistent punishment at this age, it will be too late. He already knows how to manipulate mom to get what he wants. Just think about things that he does, and what your reactions are. He doesn’t do this because he is one smart 13 month old, it is the sin nature in him (was born with it). It is just natural for him to learn these behaviors.
Let me give an example that most of you have either seen or experienced yourself. You are in the grocery store, have a full cart of groceries and are almost done with your shopping when your child sees something that he wants (usually it is because the store has strategically placed these items for your little sin natured child to see them). They start throwing a royal fit and you quietly (though not all the time) tell them they can’t have it. This will happen several times because you are hoping to get through the checkout and just get home so you can deal with it. Everyone is watching by this time, and you are very embarrassed at how your child is acting. What needs to happen is this: you tell them once that they can’t have it and if they continue you will take them home immediately. When they persist, you leave your cart (you MUST be prepared to be inconvenienced), take them calmly to the car and explain to them why they are going to be spanked. When you get home, you explain it to them again, then you give them 2-4 swats on a bare bottom (they don’t feel anything on a diapered bottom), and then you take them in your arms, explain to them that you love them and that is why you have to spank them. NEVER use your hand, always a paddle. This way they will relate it to punishment for something they have done wrong, not a hateful beating, out of anger, from mom or dad.
Jamie said her “beef” with the scriptures provided by Andrea were that they were old testament. I assume that she feels that because we are in the “age of grace “ in the new testament, that the old testament scriptures don’t apply. Let me remind you that the 10 commandments come the old testament, and people in the new testament only had the old testament law to live by. My point is that old testament teachings do apply and sparing the rod WILL spoil your child. You must discipline out of love, be consistent, and explain both before and after you spank, why you are spanking. NEVER beat your child, but lovingly discipline them.
Just take a look at our society today. Nobody wants to take responsibility for things they do wrong. We as parents are not holding our kids accountable either. You will ruin them for a lifetime, and have a lifetime of grief as a parent if you do not discipline your children. Some kids are naturally obedient and you never have a problem with them, but this is not the norm. Please love, and discipline out of love, your children.

I agree with Kendra, Shepherding A Child's Heart i...

2010-02-09T12:25:17.533-06:00

I agree with Kendra, Shepherding A Child's Heart is an excellent book to read on this subject.

In response to saying that God is different in the Old Testament than the New I would say that I think that the God we serve is 'the same yesterday, today, forever'. Our God from the Old Testament is the same God in the New Testament. We cannot separate the two. You cannot believe in God as He says He is & not believe that He is who He says He is in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament.

God in the New Testament is easier to swallow than God in the Old Testament. God hates sin & always has. That is why He had to send Jesus to save us from our sins.

There are many things that I don't understand, but I don't think I have to. God is perfect & how can I, as a sinful human being, question Him? We have to be careful to not create two different gods. God is. He never changes.

Kendra, I have that book and agree! It's been awhi...

2010-02-09T07:44:04.326-06:00

Kendra, I have that book and agree! It's been awhile since I read it. It think I'll read it again to refresh my memory. Now that my kids are a little older, new things will apply. Thanks for the remeinder!

I would recommend "Shepherding a Child's Heart" by...

2010-02-08T21:38:26.531-06:00

I would recommend "Shepherding a Child's Heart" by Tedd Tripp for a solid Biblical parenting book. The first part of the book is 'Foundations for Biblical Childrearing' and the second part 'Shepherding Through the Stages of Childhood'; in the second part he devotes a chapter to spanking. He lays out the proper (Biblical) when/how/why of spanking and answers FAQ's re: spanking.
The thing I learned most from Tripp (and totally agree with) is that spanking SHOULD NOT be done out of anger or venting your parenting frustrations. We as parents have chosen not to call it spanking due to the negative response most people have to that term; we call it 'discipline'. If our child is directly disobedient (ie: we gave him a specific instruction and he heard it and did not obey) he gets disciplined. We get down to his level; talk to him about the instruction we gave him; have him acknowledge that he heard the instruction; tell him that because he was disobedient he will be disciplined; discipline him; hold him in our lap and have HIM explain to us why he was disciplined and end it with hugs and kisses. This way he knows WHY he is getting disciplined (direct disobedience to a specific instruction not just out of frustration) and he knows we always love him. I have a HUGE issue with parents that use spanking as a way to get their kids attention when their kids are acting out or use it as a way to vent their parenting frustration; this is teaching you kids that when they get frustrated they can hit others. Biblical spanking is completely different; there is no anger or frustration (if there is you need to remove yourself from the situation); the child knows what's going on (it's not just a random swat on the bottom - they know WHY they are getting a spanking) and it ends with love.

I also wanted to comment that we never rub our dog...

2010-02-08T12:24:38.817-06:00

I also wanted to comment that we never rub our dogs nose in pee if they had an accident, or used violence with them either. We only used positive reinforcement when training them. My mother is a vet tech, she has been for twenty years, we have had lots of dogs over the years and now hove two big dogs of our own.

Using violence with dogs teaches the strong-willed ones to be violent (biting, growling etc) and the weak-willed ones to cower before you (hunch over, peeing when you speak to them etc).

So maybe there is something to be said abut the way dogs should be raised compared to the way kids should be raised. . .

I was spanked as a child. Not too often, but the f...

2010-02-08T12:19:08.307-06:00

I was spanked as a child. Not too often, but the few times I was, I very vividly remember. Do I remember the times I was put in timeout? Not really. Do I remember the times I lost toys/privileges/allowance/opportunities to play with my friends? No.

Although I only have one child (a 7 week old) I have been a nanny for several children and I realize that every child is different, so every child will challenge you in new ways and require different discipline tactics.

My feelings on spanking are this:

Whether it is acceptable relies entirely on the parent's state of mind.
Very often, spanking is done out of Anger. When a parent just can't seem to take it anymore, they resort to spanking as a way to vent their frustrations with the child. This is unacceptable.
I really don't think an occasional swat immediately when a child is doing something they shouldn't is bad. There is no anger in the parent, there is not much pain for the child, little if any. It is merely a way to get their attention. The problem is, only the parent can tell the difference in their own state of mind.
It's a huge gray area of whether spanking is ok, and you have to ask yourself which category of "spanking" you fall in.
But there is something to be said about any kind of "spanking" teaching a child to hit and use violence as a means to cope with life. It is for that reason that I will not spank my children

My experience is that I was not spanked and was a ...

2010-02-08T12:18:30.110-06:00

My experience is that I was not spanked and was a very good child. My parents were consistent in their love and in their discipline, but used other methods to show me consequences to my actions than physical aggression. I do not plan to spank my child because I think there are plenty of other methods to teach children how to behave that do not involve physical pain and I just know that it is not for me.

In response to the previous poster who mentioned rubbing your dog's nose in the pee to house-train them, we actually did not do that with our dog and had great success with house-training. We got our puppy when he was 11 weeks old and he had not been house or paper-trained at all. Over the course of the first week we had him we had three indoor "accidents" and he has never peed in the house since then. And he never ever pooed in the house. We used other, non-physical methods of training and had great success, clearly. This is just to say that other methods do work!

Obviously, it is a personal choice, though.

Thank you for everyone's thoughtful comments so fa...

2010-02-08T09:52:27.215-06:00

Thank you for everyone's thoughtful comments so far. I like to have dialogue among other mothers to discuss these types of issues that are important in parenting. Obviously no one has the right answer or is the 'master parent' but it is important for us to challenge each other and possibly understand things from a different perspective.

I too have seen discipline that is not effective or used incorrectly. Before having Lauren, I was a school social worker in Chicago and was challenged many times with children that were not disciplined appropriately: either too much abusive discipline or no discipline at all. With that being said, I understand that there is a fine line with discipline and I do not take it lightly.

Scripture is a VERY important tool used in our parenting as well. I do believe that we as parents need to train our child to grow up in the ways of the Lord and be obedient and disciplined individuals. Thank you for providing scripture in relation to opinions. The only 'beef' that I have with the scripture provided is that the majority is from the Old Testament. As we all know, the Old Testaments version of justice and discipline is quite different than the New Testament. For starters, Christ modified the eye-for-an-eye with his turn the other cheek teaching. (Obviously we do not want to turn our cheek to our children's misbehavior but it is important to choose your battles wisely.) The scripture that I feel is most pertinent to my stance of non-spanking is 1 Cor. 4:21: 'Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness?'

I hope to continue this conversation of discipline and offer effective alternatives to spanking in future posts. Please feel free to continue to discuss your standpoint. I enjoy reading everyone's answers.

As we see a decline in the number of parents who s...

2010-02-08T08:16:35.620-06:00

As we see a decline in the number of parents who spank, we also see an increase in the number of unruly children. Is this related???Unfortunately, many parents are not stepping up to the plate to effectively discipline their children. I see this all the time at stores, restaurants, my day care, my christian story time, parks, etc. Are there better alternatives to spanking? Probably. Are parents using these ways correctly and consistantly? No! Yes, I will admit to trying spanking as a last resort. It didn't really work, and I felt horrible afterwards. Since then I have researched other methods. The main thing I've taken out of all my research is unconditional love and consistancy in discipline. I'm seeing too many lazy parents that will discipline for something one or two times, and then just give up. Kids are smarter than most parents give them credit for. They test their limits. If they know that by the third time they do something wrong, their parents will just give up, then they've learned a new way to get away with things! And my biggest pet peeve of all are couch discipliners! You know...the parents who yell at their kids to stop doing something while they are plopped down on the couch. Yelling it over and over and over again, but never actually getting up. Come on! Get up! Get down to your child's level, and talk to them face to face!

I have thought very carefully about how to respond...

2010-02-08T08:14:13.816-06:00

I have thought very carefully about how to respond to your post. At the time when I visited your Aloha Friday post, the only comments were from those who were spanked as children, and who will not spank their own children. I thought that was very sad. (Since then I noticed several brave souls who were open about the fact that they spank). As a child I was spanked, and I am so grateful that I had parents who loved me enough to discipline me and help me become the person God wanted me to be. I was very rebellious as a pre-teen and junior-higher. My parents had the wisdom and courage to spank me and break my will. I learned to submit to them, and as a result I learned to submit to God.

First I want to say that I understand every parent has the choice about how to raise and parent their child. That being said, it is also important to note that children are a gift from God (Psalm 127:3), and as with all things that God gives us, we will have to answer to Him one day regarding the stewardship of how we raised our children. God has set parents up in authority to watch for the souls of their children (1 Cor. 4:2; Heb.13:7, 17). If we have chosen to parent and discipline outside of His Will, His design, and His Word, then we will be judged for that (2 Cor. 5:10).

I have never read Dr. Sears books. The sixth reason you give from him is that “Hitting is actually not Biblical.” Spanking is not hitting – not just smacking or hitting your child to get them to obey. We are not talking about abuse. We are not hitting our children with our hands.

The book of Proverbs is VERY clear about child-discipline, and God DOES instruct parents to spank their children. God makes Himself clear to use the rod (Prov.13:24; Prov.22:15), not to give up spanking because of your child’s crying (Prov.19:18), and that an undisciplined child brings shame (Prov.29:15), that spanking a child will not lead to his death (Prov.23:13-14), and that spanking a child will lead him in the right path, which could eventually deliver him from hell (Prov.23:14). These are just a few of the verses that could be given.

We are talking about using a rod to teach your child that there are consequences and even pain for wrong-doing. Just as our sin breaks and saddens God’s heart, so a child’s sin breaks and saddens the parent’s heart. God does not give up on us or just “throw us away” or let us go our own way. He disciples and chastens us (Heb.12) to bring us back to doing what is right. Time out, loss of privileges, and whatever other “alternative measures” you choose to use do not get the child’s attention, or bring him pain as spanking does. The pain teaches him to do what is right in order to avoid the pain.

I understand that my viewpoint is in the minority these days. Even in the church, I don’t see many people who love their children enough to discipline them. The results of letting spanking go by the wayside are evident in the spoiled, self-centered, undisciplined children who have and are growing into young adults.

I think our pastor said it best – “We train our pets better than our children.” If your dogs pees in the carpet, do you just ignore it and clean it up? No. You rub his nose in the carpet, spank him with a newspaper, and put him outside. Now he will learn not to pee in the carpet. Why shouldn’t we love our children enough to teach them self-discipline and obedience and respect for authority? The child’s self-will will not be broken unless we follow God’s design for child-training: spanking. And if we follow God’s design, then we have the promise of Prov.22:6 – “Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it.”

Sorry my answer is so long, but that's the short version of what I believe.

There IS a lot less spanking going on these days. ...

2010-02-08T07:57:46.943-06:00

There IS a lot less spanking going on these days. However, I've seen kids time and again get up from time out or just wear their parents down until the parents have zero control. The school system is just flooded with kids that don't behave. Yes, I'm one of those that does believe a good swat would settle a lot of kids down. Not every kid, not babies, and not beating the hell out of kids. But sometimes a swat does work. It gets their attention more than anything, and used in combination with all the mumbo jumbo baby talk that's used these days with kids, caveman speak and such, there's a chance you might have a kid that's delightful to be around by the time they are 10.

My son is only 13 months, so there's no way I woul...

2010-02-08T07:54:51.442-06:00

My son is only 13 months, so there's no way I would spank at this age. But even once he is of the age where he understands more, I still wouldn't spank. There are ways other than force to teach a child the difference between right and wrong.